tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post1072924543753926603..comments2024-03-25T02:16:16.247-07:00Comments on Christ the Tao: "Jesus Command Hate!" (Origins of Religious Violence IV)Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-51716723406179575792016-07-06T06:31:37.246-07:002016-07-06T06:31:37.246-07:00Hi, Carmel. No, I haven't read that book. I ...Hi, Carmel. No, I haven't read that book. I figure I've exposed so many errors in Avalos' exegesis already, and such a pattern of tendentious and unreliable representation, that he has been retired, and we can face other batters now. David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-50724058061370815612016-07-06T05:20:34.437-07:002016-07-06T05:20:34.437-07:00Hello David,
did you write a critique about the n...Hello David,<br /><br />did you write a critique about the new book of Mr Avalos the "The Bad Jesus: The Ethics of New Testament Ethics"<br /><br />Regards,<br />SilviuAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11252037961554290459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-7529872784931274022013-06-18T10:21:44.050-07:002013-06-18T10:21:44.050-07:00I should say, though, that's a great story abo...I should say, though, that's a great story about the prostitute who gave the dog a drink. If that was really his, I'll credit Mohammed some for that. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12934365167621451886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-52184130064812324552012-01-18T08:46:56.155-08:002012-01-18T08:46:56.155-08:00Brian: You make some good points.
By modern sta...Brian: You make some good points. <br /><br />By modern standards, David's worst sins were committed as the young leader of a guerilla band, when he would wipe out enemy villages to hide the evidence from his Phillistine protector. Some of his poetry is pretty violent, too -- C. S. Lewis described some verses as "demonic." Other psalms are magnificent, and I do feed on them spiritually. I think the man matured. He repented of the one known murder of an innocent man, as king, and suffered for it greatly. That's one of the reasons we like his poetry -- it's honest and humanity. If, as king, he were telling people how to live moral lives, rather than lyrically expressing his own journey, it might be hard to stomach it. <br /><br />Moses' top best-seller is the Ten Commandments. We Christians don't really pay much attention to the detailed statutes he wrote for Israel. Anyway, all in all I have to think his life was pretty exemplary, compared to that of Mohammed. <br /><br />But I'm not at all saying that Muslim tradition should be rejected "out of hand." I'm sure there's a lot of good stuff in it. I just don't like Mohammed. I've always felt this way, growing up on Alexander Solzhenitsyn and Richard Wurmbrand: my second-published writing was a letter-to-the-editor of an Alaskan newspaper, complaining about how the press was praising Mao Zedong, when he died. I was 15 years old, and probably didn't know anything about Islam, at the time. But there may be areas of inconsistency in my thought on this subject, admittedly.David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-89426899469320884782012-01-17T11:04:14.086-08:002012-01-17T11:04:14.086-08:00Yep, you could make similar cases against the lead...Yep, you could make similar cases against the leading Jewish prophets such as Moses (advocate of genocide and stoning people to death), David (adulterer and murderer) and Solomon (something like five thousand wives, as far as I recall, and I’m guessing that all those wives weren’t senior citizens). And thanks for reminding me of that blood-thirsty maniac Joshua.<br /><br /> So, are we to dismiss the Jewish religion and dismiss the greatness of the most important Jewish prophets on this basis? Are we going to dismiss Christianity as well, since Christianity also regards these people as prophets God? I don't think that is a good approach. <br /><br />People like Moses, David and Solomon were POLITICAL figures as well as religious figures and teachers. Obviously Muhammad has this in common with them. This makes them somewhat different from people like Jesus (or Buddha) who were not political figures. Does this mean that the Jewish and Islamic traditions should be rejected out of hand? Personally, I don 't think so. Proverbs and Ecclesiastes are great books - well worth reading, even if the author to whom they are traditionally attributed can be considered a morally flawed person, and even if some people think that the advice contained within these books consists merely of 'truthful platitudes'. You could say the same about a lot of what Jesus is alleged to have said.Brian Barringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11025043345722806768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-35231606834855820602012-01-17T10:18:36.960-08:002012-01-17T10:18:36.960-08:00Brian: My main complaint about Avalos on Jesus is ...Brian: My main complaint about Avalos on Jesus is not that he is "mean-spirited" and "ungenerous," but that he is wrong. He is just as mean-spirited and ungenerous about Martin Luther, but I am forced to admit he is partly right, there. <br /><br />I have to admit, I have a hard time listening to a man who raped women, had sex with children, assassinated poets who zinged him, tortured enemies, mass-murdered hundreds of probably innocent Jews, enslaved thousands, and started numerous wars (the second-holiest form of jihad, apparently), when he tells me to "be kind." <br /><br />I swallow that pill more easily from, say, my Dad, who actually is kind. <br /> <br />Perhaps this is a defect on my part. Perhaps I should listen more carefully to Charles Manson, in case he also mouthed truthful platitudes from time to time. <br /><br />But there I go, being ungenerous, again. You may remind me of Joshua, the Inquisition, the 100 Years War, if you like. <br /><br />My main point is that while generosity of spirit IS important for fairly evaluating people, truth comes first. I am sure it is hard, from a skeptical POV, to synthesize the good in the world's religions, and finding some coherent way of dealing with the bad, too -- by attempting the first, you go further than most, which makes your atheistic philosophy of religions more interesting than that of Dr. Avalos. I think it is still incomplete, perhaps a little too simple. One thing Christianity does, I think, is bring these two divergent perspectives into coherent tension, if not balance.David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-12424420047133184682012-01-17T09:40:47.182-08:002012-01-17T09:40:47.182-08:00"We do try to keep an open mind, here."
..."We do try to keep an open mind, here."<br /><br />I should hope so, because you can't complain about people like Avalos displaying a mean-spirited and ungenerous attitude towards Jesus, if your own attitude to Muhammad is merely the mirror image of that.<br /><br />Here are a few great teachings from Muhammad that we can all learn from:<br /><br />When asked how one can tell who has true faith, Muhammad replied, “Kindness is the mark of faith, and whoever has not kindness has<br />not faith.”<br /><br />When asked how to enter Paradise, Muhammad replied: “Always adopt a<br />middle, moderate, regular course and you will enter Paradise”.<br /><br />When asked about the mercy of God, Muhammad replied, “Whoever is not merciful to others will not be treated mercifully.”<br /><br />When asked if God will forgive sinners, Muhammad replied, “A prostitute was forgiven by God, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for the dog. God forgave her because of that. A single act of true kindness can lead to God’s forgiveness.”<br /><br />When asked about helping the poor, Muhammad said, “Do not turn away a poor man even if all you can give is half a date. If you love the poor and bring them near you then God will love you.”<br /><br />When asked about true holiness, Muhammad said, “Destroying Holiest Temple stone by stone, is less evil than killing a single person”.<br /><br />When a man asked him whom he should care for most, Muhammad replied, "Your mother." <br />The man asked, "Who is next?"<br />Muhammad said, "Your mother."<br />The man further asked, "Who is next?"<br />Muhammad said, "Your mother."<br />The student asked for the fourth time, "Who is next?"<br />Muhammad said, "Your father."<br /><br />When asked whether a virtuous leader should punish transgressors, or be forgiving towards them, Muhammad replied, “It is better for a leader to make a mistake in forgiving than to make a mistake in punishing.”<br /><br />When asked about piety in religion, Muhammad replied, "Religion is very easy and whoever overburdens himself in his religion will not be able to continue on the Way. So you should not be extremists, but try<br />to be near to perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded”.<br /><br />When asked by a woman when she should pray, Muhammad replied, “Sometimes I enter prayer and I intend to prolong it, but then I hear a child crying, and I shorten my prayer thinking of the distress of the child's mother.”<br /><br />When asked about Holy War, Muhammad replied, “The Holiest War is to speak truth before a tyrannical ruler”.Brian Barringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11025043345722806768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-51847143564284613862012-01-17T07:02:20.998-08:002012-01-17T07:02:20.998-08:00Brian: You only think that because of your poor sc...Brian: You only think that because of your poor scholarship. If you were to read the Sermon on the Mount in the original Koine Greek, translate it back to the late Aramaic that Jesus spoke, then take the numeric value that corresponds to each letter and translate that into 1st Century Latin, you would realize that, when put in Roman letters, but read in 1940s Viennese German, Jesus is actually saying "Everyone come join the Galilean Hitler fan club!" <br /><br />Seriously, I don't think Avalos is crazy. I suspect he's having a grudge match with the ghosts of his own past, and has found a clever way to try to pin them. <br /><br />But as always, I am happy to hear from atheists who are less uptight about the whole matter. <br /><br />BTW, if you ever write a blog explaining all the good things we can learn from Mohammed ("Marry older women for the money, then young girls for the sex?"), please do let me know -- we do try to keep an open mind, here.David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-81189932211631503872012-01-17T03:12:06.884-08:002012-01-17T03:12:06.884-08:00Speaking as an atheist myself, Avalos's approa...Speaking as an atheist myself, Avalos's approach to Jesus strikes me as absurd, and perhaps even dishonest. It looks unbalanced, ungenerous and even unhinged. So I would just like to point out that it is possible to be an atheist and disagree with basically all of this.<br /><br />The Jesus of the gospels is a great teacher and a great man. I might not agree entirely with everything he is said to have spoken and done, but I probably do not agree entirely with everything anybody says and does. Even so, people can profit enormously, and their lives can be enriched, from learning about the words and deeds ascribed to Jesus in the gospels. Some of the parables and quotes attributed to Jesus are, quite simply, utterly unforgettable - once you have heard them once they stay with you always, and come to you in times of need. The gospels are amazing works of literature. They are philosophically and ethically profound. Any fair-minded humanist or atheist can find wonderful things in them. The figure of Jesus is central to Western civilisation, culture, art and morality - he is also a key figure in Islamic civilisation. Jesus is even, in my opinion, a central figure in the history of humanism. Basically, all peoples and civilisations can benefit by becoming acquainted with the figure of Jesus - as they can also, in my view, benefit from becoming acquainted with the figures of Socrates, Mahavira, Buddha, Confucius, Laozi, and (yes) Muhammad.<br /><br />Of course, none of this means that all the claims made about Jesus in the gospels (particularly concerning miracles) are true, or that he rose from the dead, or that he was God, or anything of that sort. In so far as orthodox and insititutional Christianity demands belief in claims about Jesus that I believe to be false, and in so far as I believe that Jesus himself would likely have regarded many of these claims as wrong and even obscene, you can call me a non-Christian for Jesus, since I am of the view that orthodox and institutional Christianity is likely to be a betrayal of the true teaching of Jesus - or, at least, a betrayal of the teachings of Jesus that were good and true.Brian Barringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11025043345722806768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-44737993652358733032012-01-16T16:58:52.671-08:002012-01-16T16:58:52.671-08:00Thanks, Meigan. Maybe I'll link the earlier p...Thanks, Meigan. Maybe I'll link the earlier posts in the series.David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-38528561345618555642012-01-16T10:49:59.802-08:002012-01-16T10:49:59.802-08:00Really wonderful post...loved to read this post !!...Really wonderful post...loved to read this post !!meiganhttp://holy-food.org/noreply@blogger.com