tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post7676915606052227222..comments2024-03-25T02:16:16.247-07:00Comments on Christ the Tao: Marx Madness: Ten Criteria for Historical InfluenceUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-33230481982899614352013-03-06T08:58:42.093-08:002013-03-06T08:58:42.093-08:00G.K. Chesterton says religion tends to evince four...G.K. Chesterton says religion tends to evince four kinds of beliefs: in God, the gods, the philosopher, and demons. It is the glory of philosophy to be skeptical. But then as Chesterton puts it, "An open mind, like an open mouth, is meant to be closed on something solid." David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-69547032906926146812013-03-04T09:08:32.018-08:002013-03-04T09:08:32.018-08:00Yes, I wouldn’t be surprised either if in Theraved...Yes, I wouldn’t be surprised either if in Theraveda countries many or even most Buddhists believe in personal immortality – human nature has a way of breaking through doctrinal teachings that try to go against it :-) But I think it is also in some people’s natures not to believe in personal immortality.Brian Barringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11025043345722806768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-21864633476623309102013-03-04T08:52:18.930-08:002013-03-04T08:52:18.930-08:00Brian: The difference is commonly recognized among...Brian: The difference is commonly recognized among Chinese between a "school" and a "religion" -- all three traditional faiths come in both forms. The Buddhist school teaches the things you say. The Buddhist religion, as popularly believed by most "Buddhists," is more interested in divine help and some form of eternal life. Zen temples often have Guan Yin, who in Chinese religion is the most popular goddess, and the person one calls on for help and salvation most frequently. <br /><br />I don't know how this works in Theraveda countries, whether Buddhists there also really believe in the afterlife and hope for a savior -- I wouldn't be surprised. David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-69540437523513843292013-03-04T07:18:53.448-08:002013-03-04T07:18:53.448-08:00The new atheists are incorrect if they think that ...The new atheists are incorrect if they think that there is something intellectually or morally wrong with being a theist or a follower of Jesus. Although in fairness to the new atheists, they don’t think that anyone who disagrees with them is going to hell for eternity. A substantial proportion of Christians seem to think that anyone who does not believe in Jesus or God is going to hell for all eternity.<br /><br />Buddhists want salvation, but what is meant by salvation is Nirvana - by which is typically meant the complete annihilation of the personal ego - thus the precise opposite of the doctrine of personal immortality taught by Christianity. Most forms of Buddhist salvation involve the annhilation of the personal soul or ego - the self and the world become indistinguishable – the illusion of the ego is finally overcome, and one becomes thoroughly dissolved into the World. That is Nirvana. The Pali Canon is the earliest Buddhist scripture so it is most likely to reflect what Buddhism was originally about. <br /><br />But yes, Buddhism is very tolerant and there are a lot of types of Buddhiism - some forms of Buddhism, like Pure Land Buddhism, have something more like personal immortality in another world – so it appears some Buddhists believe in personal immortality and others don’t, and there is no single creed on the matter. But most schools of Buddhism do not teach any doctrine of personal immortality, as far as I can see. <br /><br />Do you really think Chan or Zen Mahayana Buddhists are looking for a personal saviour? According to one Zen monk “If you meet the Buddha on the way, kill the Buddha”. Another one says: “If you students of the Way wish to become Buddhas, you need study no doctrines whatever, but learn only how to avoid seeking for and attaching yourselves to anything.” That means not attaching yourself to the person of the Buddha. In general they do not sound to me like people looking for a personal saviour.<br /><br />Marx was arrogant and he was wrong, but I don’t think he was a particularly bad person. He wasn’t an angel either, but I wouldn’t regard him as evil, like Stalin was evil.Brian Barringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11025043345722806768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-64863096978502019712013-03-04T06:08:09.975-08:002013-03-04T06:08:09.975-08:00Brian: To be clear, "theism" can be comp...Brian: To be clear, "theism" can be compared to "atheism," while "Christianity" should be compared to "Marxism-Leninism," or "communism." The target of the "New Atheists" is broader than just Christianity, it is theism or religion in general. And so they bring up the Inquisition to denigrate not just "the Catholic synthesis of the High Middle Ages," but religion in general. And since Marxism was the largest atheistic "religion" of modern times, they seek to blame its crimes on "politics" or even "religion" in some convoluted manner, such as pointing out that Stalin went to seminary, and of course Stalin was the only communist thug worth mentioning. <br /><br />But I do admit that atheism was neither a sufficient nor even neccessary cause of the Gulag, above. <br /><br />No one really knows for sure what the historical Buddha taught. But most "Buddhists" do not put such as the Dharmapada front and center, and probably don't buy its message of self-salvation. The most popular Buddhist sect is probably Pure Land, or Mahayana generally, which look for a savior. <br /><br />I think you badly misread Marx as a person. Take a gander at Marx and the Intellectuals, or Aikman's Atheism in the Marxist tradition, which tells the story of his conversion to "atheism." If you're feeling especially bold, try Wurmbrand's Marx and Satan. (I won't recommend Intellectuals, which I know you dislike -- and I reviewed it somewhat critically, too.) There seems to be surprisingly little evidence that Karl Marx was genuinely motivated by compassion for anyone other than himself. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12934365167621451886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-5491581636013686212013-03-04T04:45:11.854-08:002013-03-04T04:45:11.854-08:00However, Marxism is an example of an atheistic phi...However, Marxism is an example of an atheistic philosophy that for a time many atheists did take as creedal, even though very few people do now, as it has become evident that Marx was seriously mistaken in many important respects. But I wouldn’t be quite as anti-Marx as you are. Marx did not himself advocate genocide or argue that genocide is a good idea. Marx did he support tyranny, or support slavery or anything abominable like that. Quite the contrary – he adovcated fighting slavery and tyranny. Marx did not exult in bloodshed for its own sake, or think that bloodshed was a good thing in itself. One might plausibly argue that trying to implement Marxism leads inevitably to tyranny, slavery and genocide – maybe so, but Marx himself did not want those things to happen – he actually wanted to end tyranny, slavery and genocide. (I can think of another very famous atheist thinker who openly says that he supports slavery, tyranny and even murder and mass killing – Nietzsche). <br /><br />Marx argues that rebellion, resistance and revolution are inevitable and justified if political oppression is bad enough – to take the opposing position would mean arguing the pacifiist position that people should submit without resistance to tyranny and oppression no matter how bad it is, which is arguably what Jesus says, but it’s an open question whether that’s a good idea or not (to put it mildly). In any case, it doesn’t seem unlikely to me that if Marx had still been around in the 20th century he would have supported the resistance and rebellion that put an end to the Communist tyrannies of the 20th century – since his motivation is clearly outrage at political oppression of vulnerable people. One might argue that he was completely wrong in the solutions he advocated – that Marx’s hatred of injustice led to a utopian political philosophy that ends up creating even more injustice than existed previously. Again, this is a plausible argument – but the motive for Marx was his hatred of injustice and oppression. <br /><br />Marx may have been arrogant, but at least he didn’t say that anyone who disagrees with him is going to hell to suffer for eternity. Did Marx say anything as arrogant as this: “I am the way, the truth and the life, and no one gets to the Father except through me”?<br />Brian Barringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11025043345722806768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-73830696250699462392013-03-04T04:41:32.999-08:002013-03-04T04:41:32.999-08:00It goes without saying that for anyone who is a Ch...It goes without saying that for anyone who is a Christian, Jesus is central to their worldview – it therefore matters decisively to any Christian what Jesus did and said. It also goes without saying that for anyone who is an atheist, Marx is not necessarily central to their worldview – in fact, you can be an atheist and think that Marx is the biggest asshole who ever lived, or that Marx was wrong about absolutely everything except his atheism. You can’t be a Christian and think that Jesus is the biggest asshole who ever lived. <br /><br />Indeed, many atheists do not think you should follow any particular person, book or tradition. A person or book or tradition might provide some guidance in how to live well, but none necessarily has the status of a “supreme authority” – you just need to follow the truth, which is ultimately discoverable independently of any person, book or tradition, even though certain people, books and traditions may help you along the way. That would be a fairly standard atheist position, I think. In general for atheists there is less exclusive focus on a particular person or a particular book – the more creedal, theistic religions, such as Christianity and Islam, are the opposite of this. <br /><br />This is even true of more “atheistic religions”. To take your example, Buddhism is more atheist than Christianity and a central element of the overall Buddhist attitude is expressed in the following comment from the Dhammapada: “No one saves us but ourselves, no one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path but Buddhas clearly show the way.” Consider the Buddha’s doctrine of free enquiry “Do not go by revelation; Do not go by tradition; Do not go by hearsay; Do not go on the authority of sacred texts; Do not go on the grounds of pure logic; Do not go by a view that seems rational; Do not go by reflecting on mere appearances; Do not go along with a considered view because you agree with it; Do not go along on the grounds that the person is competent; Do not go along because ‘the recluse is our teacher’. Rather, when you know for yourself, ‘these things are wholesome, these things are not blameworthy, these things are praised by the wise, these things are rational, these things when undertaken and observed lead to benefit and happiness’, then having undertaken them, abide in them.”<br /><br />Another famous Buddhist quote is: “Suppose there were a row of blind men, each holding on to the one in front of him: the first one doesn't see, the middle one doesn't see, the last one doesn't see. In the same way, the statements of the holy men turn out to be a row of blind men: the first one doesn't see, the middle one doesn't see, the last one doesn't see. So this being the case, don't the statements of the holy men turn out to be groundless?"Brian Barringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11025043345722806768noreply@blogger.com