tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post8570686720061499320..comments2024-03-25T02:16:16.247-07:00Comments on Christ the Tao: Response to Brian BlaisUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-18193980929645016092013-06-10T08:40:55.734-07:002013-06-10T08:40:55.734-07:00What I find bothersome about this cartoon is that ...What I find bothersome about this cartoon is that militant secularists don't just drown their sorrows at the bar. They engage in frivolous lawsuits to try to cow people going along with what they think is normative. They are too cowardly to confront people directly, but they instead try to oppress them by subverting the very principles of this nation that allowed them to shoot off their mouths in the first place. They are cowardly hypocrites. They have all the rights they could reasonably hope for. They should just shut up and be content, except for the fact that the activist impulse continues to thrash around looking for something to justify it, even if there is nothing left.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-29390773716625397962013-06-10T06:48:26.833-07:002013-06-10T06:48:26.833-07:00Billy: As I recall (it's been a while since I ...Billy: As I recall (it's been a while since I listened), most of my comments in that debate had to do with the impact of Christianity, not its truth, since that was Barry's biggest concern, and I think where Justin's questions must have led us. Also, Justin brought in two other people, one on each side, by phone. I still speak on the New Atheism pretty often, and have added some material to my stock presentation; there may be a few points I've changed my mind on. For example the multiverse seems a more live option these days, so I take that into more consideration when I'm talking about origins, briefly. Hector Avalos and I have gone back and forth on slavery, so I may be a little more careful in how I phrase claims on that subject -- but I still make them. My own Outsider Test arguments, and further examples of how the Gospel has liberated humanity, may also come into the arguments, along with examples from great new books, like Richard Bauckham's Jesus and the Eyewitnesses, and Craig Keener's Miracles, also my own study of the theology of religions, from my now-completed doctoral dissertation. I also may refer more to the work of some contributors to Faith Seeking Understanding, including, of course, Alvin Plantinga, as well as to his sparring partner, Timothy McGrew. I've also read quite a few new Gnu books, and refer to them and to my interactions with their authors -- Carrier, Avalos, Loftus, Stenger -- a bit. <br /><br />An interesting question -- it makes me think. I don't think the critics of The Truth Behind the New Atheism have debunked anything important. But if I could do it over, I might insist that Harvest House include three final chapters that make a positive case more forcefully, in story form, that they decided not to include. <br /> David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-61146965710188633692013-06-10T06:35:50.821-07:002013-06-10T06:35:50.821-07:00Great! That is fascinating material. I'm pri...Great! That is fascinating material. I'm printing it out, and may make further use of it. Thanks to you both. <br /><br />The end date for this accounting is the year 2000. The definition of "martyr" they use is, indeed, quite broad: <br /><br />"For the purposes of this volume’s primarily quantitative<br />analysis of martyrdom, Christian martyrs are<br />defined as ‘believers in Christ who have lost their<br />lives prematurely, in situations of witness, as a result<br />of human hostility.’ This definition has 5 essential and<br />indeed indispensable elements which can be stated<br />as follows:<br /><br />"1. ‘Believers in Christ’. These individuals include the<br />entire Christian community including professing<br />Christians, crypto-Christians, affiliated Christians,<br />and unaffiliated Christians. In AD 2000, some 2.0 billion<br />individuals match this description, and since the<br />time of Christ over 8.3 billion have believed in Christ.<br /><br />"2. ‘Lost their lives’. Our definition is restricted to Christians<br />actually put to death, for whatever reason."<br /><br />Does this include deaths in wars, though? That would be unwarranted. <br /><br />One other item remains to be considered: how many folk of other faiths or unfaiths "Christians" have put to death without just cause. David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-11085592387394878752013-06-10T05:51:07.418-07:002013-06-10T05:51:07.418-07:00David, given that New Atheism is a now a little lo...David, given that New Atheism is a now a little longer in the tooth I wonder what, if anything, you would say differently to the atheist guests that you talked to? <br /><br />I'm not asking about your performance insofar as you might think to yourself "I wish I had said X, Y and Z". Rather, do you think that your arguments against New Atheism remain essentially the same (perhaps with some refinement)? Or would you present a different set of arguments? Perhaps along the line of a critique of New Atheism itself?<br /><br />The interview is some 5+ years old (I think) so surely some things have changed. This said, I'm not sure that Dawkins et al offered us anything other than repackaged arguments.Billy Squibshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04179984225172253248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-3614269551585828232013-06-10T02:43:35.950-07:002013-06-10T02:43:35.950-07:00it is on line:
http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resour...it is on line:<br />http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/documents/WCT_Martyrs_Extract.pdfdomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02775415782548456535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-21361822928161073522013-06-09T16:50:56.796-07:002013-06-09T16:50:56.796-07:00David: That may be. It tells more on the page wi...David: That may be. It tells more on the page with the information, which I do not have at the moment. At the very least, it shows that, contrary to their self-image, atheists have been the biggest killers in history.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15589068803309555248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-71263041299034542732013-06-09T16:31:17.787-07:002013-06-09T16:31:17.787-07:00Stephen: Indeed, I will keep an eye out for that. ...Stephen: Indeed, I will keep an eye out for that. I wonder how they defined "Christian" and "martyred" -- probably most Soviet murders were of nominal Christians who owned one too many horses, or a bit too much horse sense. David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-21835278449840449312013-06-08T17:45:58.701-07:002013-06-08T17:45:58.701-07:00David: Yes, it gives cumulative data for the last ...David: Yes, it gives cumulative data for the last 2,000 years. IIRC (I'm writing this from memory) about 69,000,000 Christians were martyred in all of Christian history, about 45,000,000 in the 20th century.<br /><br />You should look at it when you have the chance. I find that no one knows about this.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15589068803309555248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-25095161424213886802013-06-08T16:28:04.716-07:002013-06-08T16:28:04.716-07:00No, I haven't seen that. What are the time fr...No, I haven't seen that. What are the time frames? Does that mean, in all of world history? David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-64769256508283352062013-06-08T15:55:17.246-07:002013-06-08T15:55:17.246-07:00David, have you seen the chart in
"The World...David, have you seen the chart in <br />"The World Christian Encyclopedia," Oxford Univ. Press, 2000? In vol. II, page 11, it gives statistics on Christian martyrdom. Atheists have killed over 31,000,000 Christians, far more than other groups, such as the Muslims, who killed somewhat over 9,000,000. <br /><br />It helps to put things in perspective.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15589068803309555248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-62771149686512126312013-06-07T06:41:37.725-07:002013-06-07T06:41:37.725-07:00Brian: Thanks for responding.
Probably a simpler...Brian: Thanks for responding. <br /><br />Probably a simpler way to respond to your criticism of my use of "militant" is to cite Funk & Wagnall:<br /><br />"militant adj. 1. Combative or warlike in nature or tendency; aggressive."<br /><br />Notice the little word "or" here. This means that one need not be "warlike" to be described as "militant;" one can also be "combative." The authors then give the further possibility that one is "aggressive." <br /><br />Now do you really deny that it is reasonable to describe Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, P. Z. Myers, or, say, Hector Avalos, as "combative" or "aggressive?" The last thing they resemble, is the cool, bohemian fellow with the beer in that cartoon you linked to. (I don't think the League of Militant Atheists engaged in any actual warfare, either.) <br /><br />As for the distinction between killing people for your metaphysics or for some other reason, that really doesn't get you off the hook. The abortion assassinations were conducted to save babies from being killed, not "for God," simply, but for a developed ideology of which belief in God was a part. Same, for the most part, with ideological atheist terrorists: atheism tends to be an important part of the overall ideology, though they also give nationalistic, technological, class, etc reasons for their actions that are also part of that ideology. <br /><br />I'll respond to the rest later; need to get some work done, this morning. <br /><br />(cross-posted)David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-51624249803766718892013-06-07T05:34:16.193-07:002013-06-07T05:34:16.193-07:00Here's my response to this:
http://brianblais...Here's my response to this:<br /><br />http://brianblais.wordpress.com/2013/06/07/miscellaneous-christian-topics-another-counter-to-marshall/<br /><br /> - Brian Blaisbblaishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03856943924761781091noreply@blogger.com