tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post9169407663268520753..comments2024-03-25T02:16:16.247-07:00Comments on Christ the Tao: Why Brian McLaren is wrong about Islam and ChristianityUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-5619169194705563292012-10-01T16:31:35.427-07:002012-10-01T16:31:35.427-07:00Amazing. Brian makes the case for Muslim peacefuln...Amazing. Brian makes the case for Muslim peacefulness based on wars they didn't happen to participate in. I guess that makes the African and western nations equally peaceful, since they did not participate in the conflicts in India and Pakistan.<br /><br />He is also illegitimately contrasting two different things: culture and war. Everyday culture in Islam is violent and barbaric. Does he consider honor killings, burning houses down, beatings, etc. a "model of good behavior"? Is he aware of how Islam has always been spread? <br /><br />So picking out a war for comparison is truly ludicrous: it's like comparing an habitually violent man and comparing him to someone who only uses violence in self defense, but is otherwise peaceful. Islam corresponds to the former.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00074803503157436185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-81779447377804625062012-09-24T08:12:43.942-07:002012-09-24T08:12:43.942-07:00Brian: By the way, if you have time, and you'r...Brian: By the way, if you have time, and you're not too ticked off at my dissing of Islam, I'd be interested in your take on "Why do some atheists spell God with a little g?" and "Peter Berghossian sees through me."<br /><br />For the record, if we lived in the time of the Opium War and the early imperialism in India, I think it would be proper to attack the imperialists -- as many devout Christians did, including almost all missionaries in China, for instance. David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-61531444715750579022012-09-24T08:02:08.995-07:002012-09-24T08:02:08.995-07:00Brian: Well, if Idi Amin, Omar al-Bashir, Assad, S...Brian: Well, if Idi Amin, Omar al-Bashir, Assad, Saddam Hussein, and the Ayatollah Khomeini, and Osama bin Laden, are your idea of angels, I think I'd rather go to the atheist hell, thank you very much. If anything kept them from the record books, it was relative impotence, not want of bloodlust. Now that Pakistan and (soon) Iran have nukes, the stakes are clearly higher. <br /><br />But you're missing the point. I'm not claiming Islam in the past has been worse than, say, Nazism, or Aztec religion (which also failed to win the gold in butchery, not through lack of trying.) <br /><br />It does seem the case that Muslim slave traders killed and / or transported as many or more slaves than Europeans, despite the latter's technological advantages. But I didn't mention that in the OP, either -- it is also not the point. <br /><br />The point is today's world. One can only oppose evils of the present or near future: it is too late to fight the battles of the past. <br /><br />And in the present world, there is something obviously and dangerously wrong with Islam. You can deny that if you like: Denial is, after all, a river that flows past Cairo. David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-48573086958715569092012-09-24T07:47:38.573-07:002012-09-24T07:47:38.573-07:00You could make the case that the dubious honour fo...You could make the case that the dubious honour for most destructive war since WWII belongs to the Chinese. But the International Rescue Committee (IRC) carried out the study with Australia's Burnet Institute, and concluded that Democratic Republic of Congo's 1998-2003 war between Christians, and its aftermath, had caused more deaths than any other conflict since World War Two. You can also make the case that the genocide in Cambodia was worse than the genocide perpetrated by the Christians of Rwanda - or you can make the reverse case, depending on how genocide is defined.<br /><br />Either way, what is noticeable here is that Muslims were responsible for NONE of these barbaric atrocities. Muslims can sit back back and let Westerners, Christians, and East Asians fight it out for who has been more violent and radical since WWII. By comparison, Muslims have, relatively speaking, been a model of good behaviour, civilised moderation and peacefulness. And if you look at who was more violent and barbaric during and before WWII – well, once more, the Muslims come out looking like angels by comparison to Westerners from Christian nations, or with East Asians.<br />Brian Barringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11025043345722806768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-77507341573423558172012-09-24T07:16:04.867-07:002012-09-24T07:16:04.867-07:00Brian: On some subjects, you're a bit like one...Brian: On some subjects, you're a bit like one of Pavlov's dogs: the action-response mechanism seems almost unconscious. A Christian "disrespects" Islam, and you open fire blindly in the opposite direction. <br /><br />Well, I like dogs, and I rather appreciate your rather canine loyalty to your Muslim friends. But for the record: <br /><br />* Brian M was talking about American evangelicals, not racial wars in Rwanda. <br /><br />* Civil war in the Congo has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity. (Except for Christians trying to pick up the pieces -- I know one.) Read The Heart of Darkness -- same territory, same motives. <br /><br />* Genocide in Cambodia was far worse than in Rwanda, so you're wrong about that. (Unless you use a very technical definition of genocide -- which seems strange, since ideology is more relevant than race, here.) <br /><br />* Idi Amin's mass murders actually were in the name of Islam, against Christianity. The motive in Rwanda was not religious. <br /><br />* The Sudanese war against black tribes in the south was also largely religious in motivation, lasted for decades, and killed millions. <br /><br />* By far the most destructive war after World War II was the communist (atheist) conquest of China.<br /><br />* I'm glad you're not so foolish as to claim the people who launched World War II -- Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, and the Japanese military clique -- or their followers, were motivated by some sort of Christian belief. But you kinda sorta imply that, or work your way around it. <br /><br />* Who claims that because we have one set of evils (communism, Nazism) therefore fundamentalist Islam cannot be a problem? I was a Cold Warrior. I protested communist crimes, beginning with my first published letter-to-the-editor, on the death of the tyrant Mao in 1976. How is it inconsistent for me to protest evils by radical Islam, now? <br /><br />* The British imperialists conquered India for profit, then kept missionaries out, so they wouldn't interfer with their depradations. When zealous Christians began to influence Indian policy, things changed radically for the better. Read the works of Vishal Mangalwadi, please. <br /><br />Again, rather than just respond to some Platonic (or Pluto-puppian) argument in your mind, or ringing in your ears, please address the actual arguments, above. And try to remember that on any given continent, some actions actually are motivated by a given ideology, and others are not. David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-25582602277905427242012-09-24T06:50:19.991-07:002012-09-24T06:50:19.991-07:00The idea that Christians are any more peace-loving...The idea that Christians are any more peace-loving or decent than Muslims is so ridiculous it should hardly need rebuttal – but since anti-Islamic bigotry and anti-Arab racism are so ingrained in the West, the manifestly ludicrous claim that Muslims are more violent or more radical than Christians does, unfortunately, need to be rebutted.<br /><br />Let’s start with a few facts: the biggest genocide since World War II was perpetrated by Christians upon Christians – a mass-murder of 800,000 people that took place in Rwanda. The most destructive war since World War II was a war amongst Christains, leading to the estimated deaths of 5 million people – this took place in the Congo, where five million people were slaughtered. Before then, we have the two world wars themselves – which largely took place between traditionally Christian countries, leading to the deaths of tens of millions of people. Westerners complain about the attitude of Muslims towards Jews – perhaps momentarily forgetting the fact that it was Westerners from Christian countries who systematically exterminated 6 million Jews. Then there was the Western imperialism of Christian countries – you have to laugh at Westerners who complain about Muslim plans to “take over the world” by force. It was Christian countries that ACTUALLY did take over the world by force, during the era of European colonialism, inflicting disgraceful famine and destruction wherever they went e.g. tens of millions of people dying of starvation in India (in some of the biggest famines in human history) while under British rule. The Christian imperialists were technologically superior to the people they conquered. They were not morally superior to the people they conquered- they were morally savage. They frequently exterminated the people they conquered, traded them as slaves, or exploited them in some other way. If you back further you get to the religious wars of Europe which dragged on for centuries (the Thirty Years war in Germany reducing the population of the country by at least a third, for example) – and so on. Coming back to the present we ask ourselves: how many Christian countries have recently been invaded and occupied by Muslim countries? Answer: zero. How many Muslim countries have recently been invaded and occupied by Western Christian countries? Answer: at least two – Afghanistan and Iraq.<br /><br />Westerners, stewing in their own igorance and bigotry, are laughably unaware how ridiculous it seems to the rest of the world when Westerners and Christians preen and congratulate themselves on being so peace-loving and moderate.<br /><br />Add it up whichever way you look, Christians and the Christian world are responsible for FAR more violence and destruction than Muslims or the Muslim world. Of course, it does not necessarily make sense to blame Christianity itself for the unparalleled violence and aggression of Christian countries; but blaming Islam for the misbehaviour of people in the Middle East is just as stupid.Brian Barringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11025043345722806768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-5261643965692038292012-09-23T11:35:13.400-07:002012-09-23T11:35:13.400-07:00Josh: The point you ascribe to Brian may be worth ...Josh: The point you ascribe to Brian may be worth making, but I don't think Brian makes it effectively, either rhetorically or intellectually. He falls short with the rhetoric, because he's too one-sided, and pretends to be an insider when his own unfair and one-sided rhetoric reveals him as a critical outsider. He falls short logically, for the reasons given above. <br /><br />I don't think Islam is "unfairly associated" with "radicalism," at all. Mohammed was a radical preacher who did radical things -- in the same cruel sense of "radical" as Osama bin Laden. But this is a common difference between liberals and convertives: conservatives often define religions by the lives of their founders, and by holy canon, whereas liberals tend to define them by developed tradition. <br /><br />I've already explained the problems with the term "Islamophobe." If you think I'm wrong in what I said above, rather than just repeating the term, you should show how my comments are incorrect. I've also explained that "fear" and "hatred" are not intrinsic, undifferentiated evils, but only in relation to objects to which they stand in inappropriate relation -- there is no harm in spreading "hatred" of oppression or dishonesty, for instance, which I do hate. <br /><br />I agree with a lot of what you say in the last paragraph. But some of it is self-contradictory. Either it is wrong to ever criticize others, or it is not. If it is, then McLaren hangs himself on his own petard, since that's precisely what he's doing. If it's not, then one can't assume a priori that Christians should never criticize Islam. <br /><br />The Gospel calls us to a difficult balance. I don't think McLaren has struck that balance very well. Maybe I haven't quite hit it, either, and certainly there's room for humility on all sides. David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-67214337928456540752012-09-23T08:02:24.021-07:002012-09-23T08:02:24.021-07:00While I appreciate your desire to honestly discuss...While I appreciate your desire to honestly discuss and critically think about important issues, I think you have missed on this one. <br />The article by Mclaren is merely pointing out that there needs to be introspection about our role and involvement in spreading hate and misunderstanding around the world. He is showing a correlation between the fanaticism and radicalism that inhabits certain segments of Islam with the fanaticism and radicalism that inhabits segments of evangelicalism. In the same way that Islam is now unfairly associated with radicalism so to evangelicalism is danger of being unfairly associated with Muslim hate mongering. There is a segment of evangelicals who are Islamophobic and, since they scream the loudest, they are the perception some Muslims have about Christianity. <br /><br /> Spreading hate and fear serves no good. Christ most harshly criticized leaders from his own religion and humbly accepted abuse and hate while serving as a model of the humble servant. We as Christians are called to model Christ and love those who persecute us. We cannot control how others understand or perceive what we say, but we can control what we say and how we say it. McLaren is pointing out that we have a responsibility to think before we talk and not assume a false moral superiority. If we are not careful, and if we don't rely on God's grace and love, we are in danger of committing the same type of harmful and shameful acts committed by some segments of radical Islam. He is reminding us that at our core we are all more similar than different and very much in need of God's compassion and mercy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-77904195496752724752012-09-21T09:08:47.894-07:002012-09-21T09:08:47.894-07:00Tim: Good to hear from you. Why should I be hosti...Tim: Good to hear from you. Why should I be hostile? We welcome civil and informed discussion here. <br /><br />I have often cited Girard in my writings, actually (in The Truth Behind the New Atheism, and in Jesus and the Religions of Man, I think), and agree with his take on this issue. Yes, we do have a human problem, manifest in all those places. The Gospel is, I believe (with Girard), the solution to that problem, though that solution manifests itself piecemeal, and in dialectic with said human nature down through the centuries. Rodney Stark is also enlightening on this subject. <br /><br />Three things are going on at the same time. There is the human problem. There are also the problems of bad people and false teachings. Mohammed was a bad man. The doctrine that one should kill those who convert out, is I think (apparently you agree) a false teaching. This false teaching can be separated from Christianity pretty easily, since Jesus talked so much about love. It's harder to separate from Islam, which is one of the problems. <br />David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-27856595942324895942012-09-21T08:44:59.648-07:002012-09-21T08:44:59.648-07:00Beloved brother,
Yes, our Muslim friends have don...Beloved brother,<br /><br />Yes, our Muslim friends have done evil<br />Murder<br />Abuse<br />Rape<br /><br />And... As Paul reminds us: even as we condemn others, we have done the same things. Christian Germany and Christian Rwanda both inflicted genocide. Catholics and Protestants once butchered one another for a century, leading to the Enlightenment.<br /><br />Of course, Armenians were slaughtered by Muslims through genocide. The Hebrew scriptures speak of wiping out the Canaanites.<br /><br />We have here a human problem. Humans often form group identity through being united against a hostile Other. Please look up the work of Rene Girard, no liberal, but a faithful Catholic whose career was dedicated to revealing this pattern.<br /><br />My guess is that you will be hostile to my post. Thus, the pressure is on me, as Jesus teaches in the sermon on the Mount, to return love when faced with hostility. Yes, I must apply this to everyone: Christian, Jew, Muslim, atheist.<br /><br />Now it is time to prove I am not a robot.<br /><br />Love to you, friend, Tim Duh-sciple Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04326031178381309933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-29301095208271498262012-09-20T20:51:38.368-07:002012-09-20T20:51:38.368-07:00I truly loathe this sort of thing I'm seeing f...I truly loathe this sort of thing I'm seeing from McLaren, and I think it has to be the worst aspect of modern Christianity.<br /><br />Did the anti-Christian group do something despicable? It's time for some soul searching to understand how Christians bring it on themselves. Did the Christian group do something despicable? It's time for some soul searching and it's extremely important to realize that no one else is at fault - that would be denying the true source of the problem.<br /><br />Also, "Anti-semitic garbage all too common in Western Christian history"? I'm pretty sure anti-semitism spreads way beyond Christians historically - but there we go again.<br /><br />And yes, Christianity is under assault by the liberal media and secular humanists. Yes, certainly there are Christians who make stupid mistakes, but this is not an either/or situatin.<br /><br />What blather from this man. What sanctimonious crap.<br /><br />Where is he when Christ and Christians are mocked on TV? Where is he when Christians are mocked and ridiculed in comics and movies? Hell, where is he when Christians are killed in muslim countries?<br /><br />Somehow, I can easily picture McLaren gently putting his arm around the shoulders of a woman with a black eye, bloodied nose and missing teeth, and he says, "Look, I understand you feel hurt right now, but you have to admit... that pot roast WAS burnt."Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.com