tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post2679665946031662866..comments2024-03-18T03:29:09.653-07:00Comments on Christ the Tao: Atheists for Huitzilopochtli: Hector Avalos Decries MissionariesUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-4417142392379878222017-09-04T21:01:46.643-07:002017-09-04T21:01:46.643-07:00Ed: I have, in the past, found articles by Valerie...Ed: I have, in the past, found articles by Valerie Tarico singularly ill-informed -- you can find an example or two on this site. <br /><br />The Bible itself tells us that Jews sometimes copied the local custom of burning babies to death. (Our own society has different methods with similar results.) Why do you bring that up? Do you think you are answering something in my article? If so, refer to it explicitly, please. <br /><br />Your page on missions is full of ill-informed and one-sided propaganda. The article defending Hindu fanatics for murdering Christians is particularly loathsome. Missionaries are human, and have certainly made mistakes many times, and done harm at times too. But the world would be a much poorer and more oppressive place without the influence of Christian missions. Just read an article or two by sociologist Robert Woodberry, to get started. <br /><br />Some of your other comments are just rants, with little attempt to relate them to anything I say here. You're abusing your privileges by monologuing out of context, also by putting words in my mouth. Your bizarre method of dialogue is worrisome. I am concerned for your state of mind, frankly. David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-90967099044332364692017-09-04T19:42:10.542-07:002017-09-04T19:42:10.542-07:00David, One suspects that tales of Yahweh were &quo...David, One suspects that tales of Yahweh were "colored in" by ancient Israelites who were eager to interpret invading armies, or deadly acts of nature (such as famine or disease), as acts that were instituted by Yahweh. Faced with horrors the ancients interpreted them by imagining that their tribal or national god was communicating His "displeasure, anger and/or jealousy." Even when the ancient Israelites were the aggressors, committing atrocities on surrounding peoples they claimed they were merely obtaining more land because Yahweh was "giving them" such land, and imagined Yahweh was "pleased" with such behavior and had "blessed" them with victory. They gave Yahweh the "praise" when their conquests were successful, but whenever things took a turn for the worse they tried all the harder to standardize and centralize worship to try and quell what they imagined was Yahweh's "displeasure." Such "coloring in" was commonplace. After Babylon was plundered by Assyria the next king of Babylon interpreted the invasion as a punishment sent by Babylon's own high god to teach his people a lesson:<br /><br />"[The citizens of Babylon] had oppressed the weak, and handed the weak into the power of the strong. Inside the city there was tyranny, receiving of bribes, people plundering each other's things, sons cursing fathers in the street, slaves cursing masters, they put an end to offerings [to the gods], they laid hands on the property of the temple of the gods, and sold silver, gold and precious stones... Marduk [the high god of Babylon] grew angry and devised evil to overwhelm the land and destroy the peoples"--c.f., W. G. Lambert, Babylonian Wisdom Literature (Oxford U Press 1960), p. 5.<br /><br />At other times ancient Near Easterners were dumbfounded when their high henotheistic god seemed to have let them down during times of suffering. Their gods remained silent, leaving people with nothing but lamentations. Think of Job, or the Psalmists' cries for Yahweh to not keep his face hidden, or lamentations. And compare this... <br /><br />A Hittite Plague Prayer Offered by the King<br /><br />Hattian Storm-god, my lord, and ye, Hattian gods, my lords! A plague ye have let into the land. The Hatti land has been cruelly afflicted by the plague. For twenty years now men have been dying. As for me, the agony of my heart and the anguish of my soul I can no longer endure. When I celebrated festivals, I worshiped all the gods. I never preferred one temple to another. The matter of the plague I have laid before all the gods in prayer, making vows to them (and saying) "Hearken to me, ye gods, my lords! Drive ye forth the plague from the Hatti land! The reason for which people are dying--either let it be established by an omen, or let me see it in a dream, or let a prophet declare it!" But the gods did not hearken to me and the plague got no better in the Hatti land. The Hatti land was cruelly afflicted. Hattian Storm-god, my lord, (and) ye gods, my lords! It is only too true that man is sinful. My father sinned and transgressed against the word of the Hattian Storm-god, my lord. But I have not sinned in any respect. It is only too true, however, that the father's sin falls upon the son. Because I have confessed my father's sin, let the soul of the Hattian Storm-god, my lord, and (those) of the gods, my lords, be again pacified! Take pity on me and drive the plague out of the Hatti land! Suffer not to die the few who are still left to offer sacrificial loaves and libations! http://members.bib-arch.org/publication.asp?PubID=BSBA&Volume=5&Issue=5&ArticleID=10Edwardtbabinskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13036816926421936940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-57046704574558449202017-09-04T19:31:59.375-07:002017-09-04T19:31:59.375-07:00David, Let's reiterate some biblical passages ...David, Let's reiterate some biblical passages you wish to defend as depictions of God:<br /><br />"You shall fear (no other gods) only Yahweh... for He is a jealous God. Otherwise His anger will be kindled against you and He will wipe you off the face of the earth... In the cities He gives you leave alive nothing that breathes... utterly destroy them... show them no mercy... or Yahweh will destroy you utterly... The Lord delivered them before us... we.... utterly destroyed the men... women, and the little ones of every city... If your brother, son, daughter, wife, or your friend who is your own soul, entice you away secretly, saying, 'Let us go serve other gods'... you shall kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death... so that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger... These curses shall come on you... because you would not obey the Lord... you shall eat the offspring of your own body, the flesh of your sons and of your daughters... The Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you... I [the Lord] will make mine arrows drunk with blood." (Deuteronomy 2:34; 5:9; 6:13,15; 7:2,4; 13:6-9, 17; 20:16,17; 28:45,47,53,63 32:42)<br /><br />"Let me alone that my wrath may wax hot against them." (Exodus 31:10; see also Numbers 16:46)<br /><br />"The Lord shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them." (Psalm 21:9)<br /><br />"The children of Israel stoned Achan and his daughters... burned them with fire... raised over them a heap of stones. And the Lord turned from the fierceness of His anger... The Lord hardened their hearts to meet Israel in battle in order that He might destroy them utterly, that they might receive no mercy." (Joshua 7:24-26; 11:20)<br /><br />"He made Israel to sin to provoke the Lord God of Israel to anger with their vanities." (1 Kings 16:26; see also: Ex. 32:10; Num. 11:1,16:46, 32:13-14; Judges 3:8, 2:20; 1 Kings 14:9,15:30, 16:2, 16:7, 16:13; 2 Kings 13:3; 2 Samuel 24:1; 2 Chron. 34:25; Psalm 18:7 & Jer. 44:6; Nahum 1:2)<br /><br />"Fathers will eat their sons, and sons will eat their fathers; for I [the Lord] will execute judgment on you... I will draw my sword from its scabbard and cut off from you both the righteous and the wicked... my sword will be unsheathed against everyone from south to north... My fury will mount up in my anger, and in my zeal and blazing wrath I declare. (Ezekiel 5:10; 21:3-4; 38:18-19)<br /><br />Perhaps you approve of the following quotation from Kenneth Kitchen: "The Hebrew force defeated the opposition; captured their towns, killed rulers and less mobile inhabitants..." "Less mobile inhabitants" is Kitchen's euphemism for the handicapped, sick, widows, elderly, pregnant women and young children. Of course if the Canaanites were as "wicked" as biblical authors lead us to believe, then one would expect a high number of "less mobile inhabitants" were left behind to be mopped up by the swords of advancing Israelites. How moral is it to imagine what a wondrously divine slaughter it was back then, but how disgusting it is today when ISIS indulges in similar slaughters, claiming more land in the name of Allah?<br /><br />Edwardtbabinskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13036816926421936940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-40348649816068887522017-09-04T19:26:51.504-07:002017-09-04T19:26:51.504-07:00David, Apparently "heaven" is going to b...David, Apparently "heaven" is going to be a vacation paradise for obedient child slaughterers. Imagine the pool-side chat in heaven, "We killed everyone in the city as God commanded, or thought we had... Then I spotted a heap of blankets rustling nearby and yanked them aside, and there saw a trembling young girl and her pregnant mom. You should have seen the look on their faces as I raised my sword and... Hey waiter, can I get another Bloody Mary? Boy, I just love this place! You can take that semi-arid 'promised land' we slayed our neighbors to obtain, and shove it."<br /><br />"In the cities He gives you leave alive nothing that breathes... utterly destroy them... show them no mercy... or Yahweh will destroy you utterly... we... utterly destroyed the men... women, and the little ones of every city." Deut.<br /><br />"Thus saith the LORD... Slay both man and woman, infant and suckling." 1 Samuel 15:3<br /><br />"A curse on him who is lax in doing the Lord's work! A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed. You are My war-club... with you I shatter old man and youth. young man and virgin." Jeremiah 48:10; 51:20,22<br /><br />"The spirit of the LORD shall come up from the wilderness, and... Samaria shall become desolate... they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." Hosea<br /><br />"According to the Bible, God gave orders to kill children and to rip open the bodies of pregnant women. The pestilences were sent by God. The frightful famine, during which the dying child with pallid lips sucked the withered bosom of his dead mother, was sent by God. God drowned an entire world with the exception of eight persons. Imagine how such acts would have stained the reputation of the devil!"<br />--Robert G. Ingersoll<br /><br />On the other hand, defending the slaying of women, children, infants and animals is easy compared to defending eternal punishment. Because if you can defend eternal punishment, you can defend anything. Note that even if that hell involves letting people weep and rend themselves for eternity, what kind of eternal compassionate Being with infinite resources at its disposal would allow such a thing to continue forever? We try to help people who are suicidal and self-punishing today using only finite means and knowledge. But according to Christian descriptions of God He has infinite means at His disposal to help others, including the knowledge of every possible thought in our heads, and how every possible influence might influence our finite minds in positive ways and directions, including the ability of God to heal genetic and mental diseases and traumatic memories from one's past. This God is also the master of time, and via such mastery could presumably lead even Satan toward the one and only light that exists, the light of truth, compared to which every other source of temptation consists of insubstantial shadows. How could such infinite light fail to find a chink in the armor of mere creations, or fail to break through eventually? An old Jewish saying goes, "God and time are the best teachers." But apologists like yourself would sooner defend the view that eternity consists of a never ending downward spiral for some as God lets go of their souls, giving up on them, no longer seeking to save what was lost as Jesus taught, and no longer seeking to teach or love, but only to damn, and only sustaining the existence of such souls in the flimsiest of fashion, till only their guilt and fear remain with no further chance of repentance, which makes child slaughter seem tame in comparison.Edwardtbabinskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13036816926421936940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-68936235916595803812017-09-04T19:07:09.605-07:002017-09-04T19:07:09.605-07:00David, Here is loads of data concerning Christian ...David, Here is loads of data concerning Christian Missionaries, Vacationaries, VolunTOURism: <br /><br />https://edward-t-babinski.blogspot.com/2015/09/christian-missionaries-vacationaries.html<br /><br />Edwardtbabinskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13036816926421936940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-6765643026549292052017-09-04T19:05:43.690-07:002017-09-04T19:05:43.690-07:00David, Here's a piece on Polytheism and Human ...David, Here's a piece on Polytheism and Human Sacrifice in Early Israelite Religion that summarizes the work of a seminary graduate whose book was praised by J. J. Collins of Yale, Greg Boyd, Tony Campolo, Dale Allison, James McGrath, and Kenton Sparks: <br /><br />https://valerietarico.com/2010/10/23/polytheism-and-human-sacrifice-in-early-israelite-religion/<br />Edwardtbabinskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13036816926421936940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-72799398896366887712017-09-04T19:01:16.250-07:002017-09-04T19:01:16.250-07:00David, Do you read Old Testament Abstracts, a tri-...David, Do you read Old Testament Abstracts, a tri-annual publication of theological writings worldwide? I was reading it a few years ago and ran across pieces such as these: <br /><br />Daniel Vainstub, “Human Sacrifices in Canaan and Israel,” Beer-sheva 19 (2010), 117-204 (in Hebrew).<br /><br />“The existence of infant sacrifices in biblical times both in the Canaanite culture and in Israel has been a matter of intense controversy in the scholarship of the last eight decades. Paradoxically, the more relevant data emerges, the wider the scholarly discensus grows. Some hold that the practice never existed among the Canaanites or the Israelites, while others aver that it was a deeply rooted practice both in the Canaanite homeland and the Punic cities of the West. Vainstubʼs comprehensive, interdisciplinary study of the issue includes an up-to-date survey of the divergent opinions concerning it and offers new insights based on an array of evidence, epigraphic, linguistic, artistic, and literary. The study highlights the significant degree of parallelism among the various sources, and comes to the conclusion that infant sacrifices to Baal by parents were indeed a strongly rooted custom in Bronze and Iron Age Canaan. The practices was taken over by the Israelites, and persisted until its abolition by Josiah. Later on, the practice was limited to the Phoenician coastal area until it was completely eradicated by the Persians there during the 5th century. B.C. Such sacrifices continued in the Phoenician colonies in the West for another 400 years.”<br />Herve Tremblay, O.P., “Yahve contre Baal?” ScEs 61 (2009)<br /><br />“Tremblay pulls together conclusions from different fields of research. If Baal is the god of Canaan, Yhwh was not originally from there and was ‘imported’ from the South. The people of Israel did not come from outside the country but emerged out of inner division within Canaanite society. In a process of ethnic and religious distinction that lasted several centuries, Yhwh was adopted as the national God by the Israelites.”<br /><br /><br />Martin Leurenberger, “Jhwhs Herkunft aus dem Suden…” ZAW 122 (2010)<br /><br />“The ‘Berlin thesis’ of Kockert and Pfeiffer has challenged the regnant hypothesis of the southern origin of Yhwh. Leurenbergerʼs article defends the southern origin hypothesis via a more comprehensive evaluation of the relevant archaeological data and biblical texts. The results of his investigation of these two bodies of data correlate with each other, and thereby substantiate the emergence of the solitary weather-god Yhwh in the Late Bronze Age Araba.”Edwardtbabinskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13036816926421936940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-41564357448561866672017-08-27T14:47:38.575-07:002017-08-27T14:47:38.575-07:00You seem to be overlooking the implications of my ...You seem to be overlooking the implications of my earlier comment. If the Bible is inspired in a different sense than you assume (my view owes to Nicholas Wolterstorff, Divine Discourse, and to C. S. Lewis, Reflections on the Psalms), then God probably did not order anyone to murder any children. And indeed, I take it that is your view as well. <br /><br />Later, the prophets emphasize that no one should be killed for his parents' sins. This represents progressive revelation, which is perfected and completed in Christ. <br /><br />I think that answers your questions (3) and (4) as well, and hints at an answer to (5). <br /><br />Have you read Wolterstorff? I think his approach fits the facts pretty well, and would answer your challenge reasonably well, though I admit there are gaps and difficulties in my view of the sacred Scriptures, part of a much larger difficulty involving the Problem of Pain in general. All worldviews face difficulties: reason is not so unreasonable as to demand that any one explanation of so complex a universe be absolutely complete. <br /><br /><br />David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-32042482524466801252017-08-26T10:33:42.966-07:002017-08-26T10:33:42.966-07:00Dear David,
Do you believe that Jesus is God or ar...Dear David,<br />Do you believe that Jesus is God or are you not a Trinitarian? Because if Jesus is God, then he would be the same God who ordered children to be killed in 1 Samuel 15:1-3.<br /><br />And did those children volunteer to be killed? Did they die willingly?<br /><br />QUESTIONS <br />1. What are your rules for determining what part of the Bible is true and what part is not if you do not believe in inerrancy?<br /><br />2. Why don't you believe that God ordered children to be killed without their consent in 1 Samuel 15:1-3?<br /><br />3. Does it occur to you that Aztec apologists can also accuse you of misunderstanding their sacrifices? <br /><br />4. What makes you think that the Aztecs don't have a Greater Good in mind for their sacrifices?<br /><br />5. Why would you ever regard as sacred a book that tells you killing infants in sometimes acceptable?<br /><br /><br />Dr. Hector Avaloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10840869326406664177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-88327465866576809342017-08-25T04:21:32.289-07:002017-08-25T04:21:32.289-07:00Hector: I appreciate the tone of your response, co...Hector: I appreciate the tone of your response, considering some harsh words I have for your argument here. <br /><br />There is a world of difference between volunteering to die to save others, and being sacrificed unwillingly. The notion of sacrifice in the former sense is one of the greatest ideals across cultures, even here in communist China, which is why there is a monument to "martyrs" in front of Tiananmen. Psychologists also recognize the centrality of this ideal, and it is the theme of many modern movies as well. I don't think an ideology that fails to find a central place for this ideal, can give us much of the truth. And it seems to have "worked" for millions of people. <br /><br />As for the verse you quoted, yes, I think killing little children is wrong. I'm not an inerracist; I can never even remember how to spell the word. <br /><br />David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-48709485995588388852017-08-24T12:19:50.461-07:002017-08-24T12:19:50.461-07:00Dear David,
This is an interesting response, but i...Dear David,<br />This is an interesting response, but it fails to see how similar Yahweh is to some Aztec gods in some respects (not to mention other factual errors and misunderstanding of the term "Latino").<br /><br />If I understand your theology, Christianity is a religion whose foundational act is the sacrifice of God's own son, but somehow the Aztecs are misguided for having human sacrifice? Perhaps you also may wish to revisit 1 Samuel 15:3 (NIV):<br /><br />"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"<br /><br />So, my question to you is one I have posed before:<br /><br />Is killing children ALWAYS wrong to you?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Dr. Hector Avaloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10840869326406664177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-54694607411286336602017-08-20T18:57:51.445-07:002017-08-20T18:57:51.445-07:00I don't know if I've talked about that in ...I don't know if I've talked about that in print. But I find that Chinese sometimes do seem to appreciate those passages in the NT better than westerners usually do -- I remember some emphasis on them in the Chinese seminary I attended. David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5071813.post-82605785398288152852017-08-20T18:53:21.135-07:002017-08-20T18:53:21.135-07:00Where have you discussed how your study of Chinese...Where have you discussed how your study of Chinese culture gave you a greater appreciation of biblical genealogies?stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16547070544928321788noreply@blogger.com